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Old 02-13-2008, 10:21 AM   #71 (permalink)
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I have to intercede here and let both of you know that you are incorrect about your statements:

BigRonJ,

There's no comparsion between the system from Twilo to Crobar. Twilo was in its own class and would out do Crobar's system anyday. The first system Crobar had in there was complete utter garbage. It was retweaked several times before it had any decent sound. By the end, it had gotten somewhat better with a clearer somewhat sweet sound.

1adam12,

You correct in your statements, except that Twilo's system was digital! All of the processors were digital and not analog. This clearly know when Twilo first opened. The system at the original Sound Factory was all analog. Twilo's system was the same exact replicate of the Sound Factory's. Both system were built by Phil Smith along with some Gary Stewart componets including some other collaboration from other people. He was into systems when he own part of the original Sound Factory. Phil Smith also had, two speaker stacks identical from Sound Factory/Twilo at the Legendary Cheetah's in Paterson, NJ. He was/still is friends with the owner Gary (different Gary) who sold the place along ago, but the same system sits there today under a different club owner/management. This system is also analog.


Also, it was hard to say which system ended up where because as you read above there were two exact replicates of each other.

The best NYC systems of all time have been:

Paradise Garage (where it started)

Sound Factory (original one)

HeartThrobs (used to be right around the corner from the Sound Factory)

Kilamanijaros (Also known as Traxs)

Sound Factory Bar

Twilo

Shelter (when they got the Twilo system as I always hated their original system even when it was in better condition when they first opened)


Steve J.

P.S. When I played at Shelter back when they were on 39th St. I had the bass thumping so hard that you could hear it two streets away. Just like how it used to heard at the Paradise Garage and the Sound Factory. That's what you call a system and still be able to talk to someone right in the middle without your ears bleeding.
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Old 02-13-2008, 10:44 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 1adam12 View Post
"DUDE" you answered your own question, let me make this crystal clear for everyone and then you can stop embarrassing yourself. AGAIN, the system at Twilo was COMPLETELY DIFFERENT then Crobar. THERE WAS NO ARRAY SPEAKERS AT TWILO. Can I be any clearer? Go post what you're saying on the wave board, psw or a board where people know what they're talking about and you would be hammered. I'm a pretty passionate guy about sound as most people on here will say about me. And probably everyone on this board will laugh at the statement that Crobar sounds better then Twilo. As I show below, the speakers at Crobar are NOTHING LIKE the speaker stacks at Twilo, do a fact check dude.

Here's a stack from Twilo:





Here's the HLA speakers you are talking about (which I'm not even sure if thats what was at Crobar, I thought it was Vertec, but I could be wrong):


How can you say completely? You might be right with the monitors. I seriously thougt it was the HLA's. But you can,t say completely. Both have the "Bertha's" on the bottom and the Quad Mid Bass on top. So we both can be right and wrong at the same time. And I question how old that Twilo pick was. I can recall that system be reworked many times.

Whatever the case.... Dash, Phazon, GSANY, Systems by shorty, etc. all use "Bertha's" as the sub of choice.

Vertec? Have you ever been to the Venue? You can't stack Vertec's.... only Flown.

I know Spirit had some Vertec Stuff in it.

Integral Sound

Last edited by BigRonJ; 02-13-2008 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 02-13-2008, 11:00 AM   #73 (permalink)
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This is what I got from a reliable source.

The first Bertha ever made was designed by Richard Long with Cerwin Vega Subs.

That Cerwin Vega was discountinued, so Richard used the Eminence subs.

After Richards passing RLA was bought out by EAW which at the time only built boxes and never manufactured SUBS.

All EAW sub boxes were loaded with JBL 2242H subs back in then.

If you look up the originl specs from EAW.... It calls for the 2242 Subs.

The difference today is DASH still uses the JBL subs. And GSANY uses the Eminence.
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Old 02-13-2008, 11:15 AM   #74 (permalink)
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Oh Oh! Shorty is log on, let's see what he has to say!
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Old 02-13-2008, 11:36 AM   #75 (permalink)
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Hello id like to chime in on this

Let me post a little insight of the systems mentioned on 27th st.

Original SF Ill go into the cabinets which were not the same as Twilo,

The original SF was Basicly a RLA system with EAW mid tops, The Bertha Levans were of the original design JBL 2241 loaded, The QUAD boxes were RLA Ultimas TAD 1601A loaded, The Midrange Cabinets were EAW - RCF & TAD 4001 Loaded with 2 JBL 2404 Bi Radial tweeters for the fullrange. Curtis, Richards Main Cabinet builder who built all the Cabinets for the PG built the Berthas in the 27th st space for Phil who was Richards partner.

Twilo was NOT the same system at all, it looked almost the same, but if you knew what to look for you knew it was not the same at all. The Berthas at Twilo were not the same as factory, They were a modified VS of the RLA/EAW BH design which EAW Offered RCF drivers not JBL 2242s. The quad boxes @ Twilo were JBL 2226 loaded, which sound nothing like a TAD , not even in the same class, nothing sounds like a TAD product. The mid tops were EAW 660 tops with the Phase plug similar to the original top in SF, but the Mid top at Twilo had a 10 in woofer and RCF horn, with 1 2404 biradial tweeter.

The Stacks were Analog till the last 6-8 months of the clubs existance (only the eqs were digital) with BSS FDS 360s, these stayed and are Analog ( but we switched from rane EQs to Klark Tecnic Digital EQs)and a rane xover on the fullrange tweeter, to align the 15s with the mid tops we had a rane delay. the side horn loaded system was processed aswell with a rane delay and rane ac series xovers with rane eqs till we changed to the KT. We had no GSA gear in Twilo and they had none of his Gear in SF on 27th st AT ALL.

The center cluster JBL system that we added when JR came Back came from the SFB and that was digitally processed with a BSS omni drive

Richard in the 80s went to EAW to develop a new Bertha and had them build them for him, he and K forsyth designed this new box together. EAW never bought out RLA aswell never heard that one lol, Richard did sign the company over to people, but not to EAW

Vega stopped sellin raw frame drivers bac in the late 70s and richard did have Eminence design a speaker for him called the 18016 wich worked great

JBL did not come out with the 2242 till the early to mid 90s, way after EAW stopped makin the BH series cabinet

Crobar and Twilo the same kind of system & clarity, Original Factory vs Twilo = NO Way. Factory was a Better system IMHO and Twilo was better then CroBar

The system from Chetah in Paterson, alot of it was the original RLA specced system for that space & some came from Studio 54

SBS offers 2 Berthas, 1 model for Eminence, & 1 for the JBL, two totally different cabinets with or without extensions

Hope this helps

Systems by Shorty

MySpace

Last edited by soundmanshorty; 02-13-2008 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 02-13-2008, 02:42 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by soundmanshorty View Post
Let me post a little insight of the systems mentioned on 27th st.

Original SF Ill go into the cabinets which were not the same as Twilo,

The original SF was Basicly a RLA system with EAW mid tops, The Bertha Levans were of the original design JBL 2241 loaded, The QUAD boxes were RLA Ultimas TAD 1601A loaded, The Midrange Cabinets were EAW - RCF & TAD 4001 Loaded with 2 JBL 2404 Bi Radial tweeters for the fullrange. Curtis, Richards Main Cabinet builder who built all the Cabinets for the PG built the Berthas in the 27th st space for Phil who was Richards partner.

Twilo was NOT the same system at all, it looked almost the same, but if you knew what to look for you knew it was not the same at all. The Berthas at Twilo were not the same as factory, They were a modified VS of the RLA/EAW BH design which EAW Offered RCF drivers not JBL 2242s. The quad boxes @ Twilo were JBL 2226 loaded, which sound nothing like a TAD , not even in the same class, nothing sounds like a TAD product. The mid tops were EAW 660 tops with the Phase plug similar to the original top in SF, but the Mid top at Twilo had a 10 in woofer and RCF horn, with 1 2404 biradial tweeter.

The Stacks were Analog till the last 6-8 months of the clubs existance (only the eqs were digital) with BSS FDS 360s, these stayed and are Analog ( but we switched from rane EQs to Klark Tecnic Digital EQs)and a rane xover on the fullrange tweeter, to align the 15s with the mid tops we had a rane delay. the side horn loaded system was processed aswell with a rane delay and rane ac series xovers with rane eqs till we changed to the KT. We had no GSA gear in Twilo and they had none of his Gear in SF on 27th st AT ALL.

The center cluster JBL system that we added when JR came Back came from the SFB and that was digitally processed with a BSS omni drive

Richard in the 80s went to EAW to develop a new Bertha and had them build them for him, he and K forsyth designed this new box together. EAW never bought out RLA aswell never heard that one lol, Richard did sign the company over to people, but not to EAW

Vega stopped sellin raw frame drivers bac in the late 70s and richard did have Eminence design a speaker for him called the 18016 wich worked great

JBL did not come out with the 2242 till the early to mid 90s, way after EAW stopped makin the BH series cabinet

Crobar and Twilo the same kind of system & clarity, Original Factory vs Twilo = NO Way. Factory was a Better system IMHO and Twilo was better then CroBar

The system from Chetah in Paterson, alot of it was the original RLA specced system for that space & some came from Studio 54

SBS offers 2 Berthas, 1 model for Eminence, & 1 for the JBL, two totally different cabinets with or without extensions

Hope this helps

Systems by Shorty

MySpace

I have to say I made a mistake about the HLA's.... But I was dead on with so many other things. I am a big fan of Steve Dash and his work. It just bothers me when people make comments about the Crobar system and they dont know what they are talking about. To say that Dash didnt put the HLA's in Crobar and that they wouldnt work right in a nightclub is just plain stupid. To make a comment that Dash doesn't know what he is doing is also a insult. If he didnt believe that the HLA's were a great product, why would he put his name on them? You have to remember who is the student and who is the teacher. I can give you at least 5 nightclubs that have HLA's in them and they sound spectacular.

Thank you for the Histroy Shorty...... You Rock Bro!

Shorty.... is it true that Dash uses JBL and Gary uses Emenince in there Bertha's? What does it cost for one of those? When EAW sold them they weren't but a couple of grand$$$$ if I recall.

P.S. You guys can't forget about those V-8's that were in the new system at Sound Factory back in 2002. I believe they were (8) 18's in one box. Out of this world bottom!!!! And I think SF had like 10 of them!






Gary Stewart Audio, Nightclub Audio Systems, Nightclub Sound Consultant, Nightclub Speaker and Sound Man, Club Audio.

Last edited by BigRonJ; 02-13-2008 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 02-13-2008, 07:09 PM   #77 (permalink)
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I never said dash doesn't know what he's talking about. I happen to think he's a brilliant guy and a super nice dude to boot. The few times I've met him he's always been super class. That doesn't mean I can't disagree.

Line arrays are the "in thing" in audio right now and if you look at the point of what a line array is for, to send a point source a far distance and have maximum control (as in for a large concert venue) then you see the whole picture. I was told by a JBL engineer directly how overused the line array is right now as club owners love the "look" of the array and because it sits in the air freeing up floor space. At the end of the day, a properly positioned traditional stack imo (as is with many others) will kill a line array. Sometimes you have to make compromises but at the end of the day, Crobar was an array system, Twilo a stack system and the best systems to date, the ones Steve J mentioned (I have to throw in Vinyl, not the arc system, the Vinyl system) sound the best.

I also believe that digital processing is a great tool and you can get some great sounding results, but to go to the limit and get the best fidelity, analog processing still kills it. That's my opinion. The best systems I ever heard were all analog, G-Spot, Montreal, Vinyl, Twilo, Stereo (when it had analog processing), etc.

Also I don't like digital amps. The theory is you can get 8000 watts out of a 20 amp circuit. If you do the math you can't sustain that kind of power and every system using I-Techs i've ever heard just has a muddy bass to it. They do things that they say can create that kind of power with digital power supplies but I've never heard a great sounding club with Itechs. That dark nasty "thud" we all love in the club systems, I've only heard on traditionally powered systems, which Crobar didn't have either.
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Old 02-13-2008, 07:15 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 1adam12 View Post
I never said dash doesn't know what he's talking about. I happen to think he's a brilliant guy and a super nice dude to boot. The few times I've met him he's always been super class. That doesn't mean I can't disagree.

Line arrays are the "in thing" in audio right now and if you look at the point of what a line array is for, to send a point source a far distance and have maximum control (as in for a large concert venue) then you see the whole picture. I was told by a JBL engineer directly how overused the line array is right now as club owners love the "look" of the array and because it sits in the air freeing up floor space. At the end of the day, a properly positioned traditional stack imo (as is with many others) will kill a line array. Sometimes you have to make compromises but at the end of the day, Crobar was an array system, Twilo a stack system and the best systems to date, the ones Steve J mentioned (I have to throw in Vinyl, not the arc system, the Vinyl system) sound the best.

I also believe that digital processing is a great tool and you can get some great sounding results, but to go to the limit and get the best fidelity, analog processing still kills it. That's my opinion. The best systems I ever heard were all analog, G-Spot, Montreal, Vinyl, Twilo, Stereo (when it had analog processing), etc.

Also I don't like digital amps. The theory is you can get 8000 watts out of a 20 amp circuit. If you do the math you can't sustain that kind of power and every system using I-Techs i've ever heard just has a muddy bass to it. They do things that they say can create that kind of power with digital power supplies but I've never heard a great sounding club with Itechs. That dark nasty "thud" we all love in the club systems, I've only heard on traditionally powered systems, which Crobar didn't have either.


So can we call a Truce? We're both Tech - Heads living in the Nightlife World right?
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Old 02-13-2008, 11:08 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Since the tech heads are all in this thread, can someone tell me what is in this pic?
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Old 02-13-2008, 11:26 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by j o h n n y View Post
Since the tech heads are all in this thread, can someone tell me what is in this pic?

From what I see in those stacks:
A 4 or 5 way system
A Bertha without the Extension
Some type of Quad Midbass ( Maybe four B&C 12's)
Dual Mid ranges Maybe ( Maybe 8's)
A Supertweeter at the top somewhat like the Beyma TPL-150
Four bullet tweeter around the top... maybe Beyma CP-22 or JBL 2402H

I've seen those stacks before, I just dont know where.
Whatever the case...it has all the trademarks of a GSANY set-up.
Wait!!!!!.....Is that the Danny Taneglia Loft?

Last edited by BigRonJ; 02-13-2008 at 11:58 PM.
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